Microformats 2 and Schema

There's been some misinformation about microformats spread at AccBristol, specifically:

For the sake of daftness, I'm going to show how to do this. I'm going to take the 2nd example of BroadcastService, about In Our Time and give a microformats2 markup for the arbitrary schema vocab.

Immediately, there is some confusion as the various examples given don't match (the JSON-LD is missing all of the episode name information, and has misparsed the dates as text; the microdata and RDFa have injected lots of extra div's that will relayout the page) but I'll see if I can match the microdata/RDFa examples: 

  1. <div>
  2.  <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qykl">In Our Time</a>,
  3.  <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03ggc19">Ordinary Language Philosophy</a>, episode 604,
  4.  broadcast on BBC Radio 4 at 09:00, 7th of November 2013, available online from 09:45 on the same day.
  5. </div>
  1. <div class="h-schema-RadioSeries">
  2.   <a class="p-name" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qykl">In Our Time</a>,
  3.   <div class="p-schema-episode h-schema-RadioEpisode">
  4.     <a class="p-name" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03ggc19">Ordinary Language Philosophy</a>,
  5.     episode <span class="p-schema-position">604</span>,
  6.     broadcast on 
  7.     <span class="p-schema-publication h-schema-BroadcastEvent">
  8.       <a class="p-schema-publishedOn h-schema-BroadcastService" href="http://bbc.co.uk/radio4">BBC Radio 4</a>
  9.       at <time class="dt-schema-startDate" datetime="2013-11-07T09:00+0100">09:00, 7th of November 2013</time>
  10.     </span>, available online from 
  11.     <span class="p-schema-publication h-schema-OnDemandEvent">
  12.       <time class="dt-schema-startDate" datetime="2013-11-07T09:45+0100">09:45 on the same day
  13.     </span>.
  14.   </div>
  15. </div>
  1. {
  2.     "items": [{
  3.         "type": ["h-schema-RadioSeries"],
  4.         "properties": {
  5.             "name": ["In Our Time"],
  6.             "schema-episode": [{
  7.                 "value": "Ordinary Language Philosophy",
  8.                 "type": ["h-schema-RadioEpisode"],
  9.                 "properties": {
  10.                     "name": ["Ordinary Language Philosophy"],
  11.                     "schema-position": ["604"],
  12.                     "schema-publication": [{
  13.                         "value": "BBC Radio 4\n      at 09:00, 7th of November 2013",
  14.                         "type": ["h-schema-BroadcastEvent"],
  15.                         "properties": {
  16.                             "schema-publishedOn": [{
  17.                                 "value": "BBC Radio 4",
  18.                                 "type": ["h-schema-BroadcastService"],
  19.                                 "properties": {
  20.                                     "name": ["BBC Radio 4"],
  21.                                     "url": ["http://bbc.co.uk/radio4"]
  22.                                 }
  23.                             }],
  24.                             "schema-startDate": ["2013-11-07T09:00+0100"],
  25.                             "name": ["BBC Radio 4\n      at 09:00, 7th of November 2013"]
  26.                         }
  27.                     }, {
  28.                         "value": "09:45 on the same day",
  29.                         "type": ["h-schema-OnDemandEvent"],
  30.                         "properties": {
  31.                             "schema-startDate": ["2013-11-07T09:45+0100"],
  32.                             "name": ["09:45 on the same day"]
  33.                         }
  34.                     }],
  35.                     "url": ["http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03ggc19"]
  36.                 }
  37.             }],
  38.             "url": ["http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qykl"]
  39.         }
  40.     }],
  41.     "rels": {},
  42.     "rel-urls": {}
  43. }
  1. {
  2.     "type": "schema-RadioSeries", 
  3.     "name": "In Our Time",
  4.     "url": "http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qykl", 
  5.     "schema-episode": {
  6.         "type": "schema-RadioEpisode", 
  7.         "name": "Ordinary Language Philosophy",
  8.         "url": "http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03ggc19", 
  9.         "schema-position": "604", 
  10.         "schema-publication": {
  11.             "children": [
  12.                 {
  13.                     "type": "schema-BroadcastEvent", 
  14.                     "name": "BBC Radio 4\n      at 09:00, 7th of November 2013", 
  15.                     "schema-startDate": "2013-11-07T09:00:00+0100",
  16.                     "schema-publishedOn": {
  17.                         "type": "schema-BroadcastService", 
  18.                         "name": "BBC Radio 4", 
  19.                         "url": "http://bbc.co.uk/radio4"
  20.                     } 
  21.                 }, 
  22.                 {
  23.                     "type": "schema-OnDemandEvent", 
  24.                     "name": "09:45 on the same day", 
  25.                     "schema-startDate": "2013-11-07T09:45:00+0100"
  26.                 }
  27.             ]
  28.         } 
  29.     }
  30. }
  1. <div itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/RadioSeries">
  2.   <a itemprop="url" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qykl">
  3.    <span itemprop="name">In Our Time</span></a>,
  4.   <div itemprop="episode" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/RadioEpisode">
  5.     <a itemprop="url" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03ggc19">
  6.      <span itemprop="name">Ordinary Language Philosophy</span></a>,
  7.     episode <span itemprop="position">604</span>, broadcast on
  8.     <div itemprop="publication" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/BroadcastEvent">
  9.       <div itemprop="publishedOn" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/BroadcastService">
  10.         <a itemprop="url" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4"><span itemprop="name">BBC Radio 4</span></a>
  11.       </div> at
  12.       <span itemprop="startDate"
  13.         content="2013-11-07T09:00:00+01:00">09:00, 7th of November 2013</span>
  14.     </div>,
  15.     available online from
  16.     <div itemprop="publication" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/OnDemandEvent">
  17.       <span itemprop="startDate"
  18.        content="2013-11-07T09:45:00+01:00">09:45 on the same day</span>.
  19.     </div>
  20.   </div>
  21. </div>
  1. <div vocab="http://schema.org/" typeof="RadioSeries">
  2.   <a property="url" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qykl">
  3.    <span property="name">In Our Time</span></a>,
  4.   <div property="episode"  typeof="RadioEpisode">
  5.     <a property="url" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03ggc19">
  6.      <span property="name">Ordinary Language Philosophy</span></a>,
  7.     episode <span property="position">604</span>, broadcast on
  8.     <div property="publication"  typeof="BroadcastEvent">
  9.       <div property="publishedOn"  typeof="BroadcastService">
  10.         <a property="url" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4"><span property="name">BBC Radio 4</span></a>
  11.       </div> at
  12.       <span property="startDate"
  13.         content="2013-11-07T09:00:00+01:00">09:00, 7th of November 2013</span>
  14.     </div>,
  15.     available online from
  16.     <div property="publication"  typeof="OnDemandEvent">
  17.       <span property="startDate"
  18.        content="2013-11-07T09:45:00+01:00">09:45 on the same day</span>.
  19.     </div>
  20.   </div>
  21. </div>
  1. <script type="application/ld+json">
  2. {
  3.   "@context": "http://schema.org",
  4.   "@type": "RadioSeries",
  5.   "episode": {
  6.     "@type": "RadioEpisode",
  7.     "position": "604",
  8.     "publication": [
  9.       {
  10.         "@type": "BroadcastEvent",
  11.         "publishedOn": {
  12.           "@type": "BroadcastService",
  13.           "url": "http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4"
  14.         },
  15.         "startDate": "09:00, 7th of November 2013"
  16.       },
  17.       {
  18.         "@type": "OnDemandEvent",
  19.         "startDate": "09:45 on the same day"
  20.       }
  21.     ],
  22.     "url": "http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03ggc19"
  23.   },
  24.   "url": "http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qykl"
  25. }
  26. </script>

Things to note here:

Updated with jf2 version.

Unknown
Homebrew Website Club 2015-07-01
Tantek Çelik: I added a few things to the wiki - Indiewebcamp 2015 is only 10 day away in Portland Oregon and Brighton England barcamp was put together in fewer than 10 days so we could still add more cities Karthik Prabhu has put together custom style and script per post for his site. This sin something silos don't let you do what would it mean to put that kind of custom style/script in a post that a Reader could pull out and present to the user? There's lots of things indieweb users can do on their own si
11 years ago
Dan Brickley
@kevinmarks @mfhepp @denials there's no such thing as a "schema.org parser" really, we only define schemas ...
11 years ago
Dan Brickley
@kevinmarks @mfhepp @denials json-ld are well tested, rdfa too; I'd say microdata less so in terms of spec/suite though it is simpler
11 years ago
Kevin Marks
@danbri @mfhepp @denials the parsers are proprietary ones that are part of search engine crawlers?
11 years ago
Dan Brickley
@kevinmarks @mfhepp @denials re 'episodeNumber', fwiw that property is a subproperty of 'position'
11 years ago
Kevin Marks
@danbri @mfhepp @denials what does subproperty mean? Name Alias?
11 years ago
Dan Brickley
@kevinmarks @mfhepp @denials if thing1 fooProperty thing2 always implies thing1 barProperty thing2, fooProperty is a sub-property of barProp
11 years ago
Jon Payne
@kevinmarks @briankelly @AccBristol Which is most widely accepted by search engines? That's the one most n00bs (like me) will be drawn to..?
11 years ago
Corey Mwamba
@kevinmarks I'm glad you note that no one would do this!
10 years ago
jalbertbowdenii
@kevinmarks marvelous! #indieweb bonus! have had to explain microformats > schema too many times to remember. html classes are hard! ;)
10 years ago
Chris Aldrich
tl;dr: It's easy enough to support microformats v2 (and even backcompat for v1) and they don't/shouldn't create any conflicts so why not support them out of the box? I think that a forward-looking platform like Auttomatic should definitely be supporting (and perhaps even iterating internally) on microformats2, particularly since they're simple added classes that give semantic meaning to the massive amounts of data that are put on the web via the platform. This makes them much more valuable to end users of
9 years ago
Kevin Marks
@aaranged saying microformats are not expressive enough is a deep misunderstanding. Read http://www.kevinmarks.com/microformatschema.html #indieweb
9 years ago
Aaron Bradley
Perhaps you misunderstand the context in which my statement was made. Let me clarify.
9 years ago
Aaron Bradley
The microformats that the search engines understand are not expressive enough to satisfy their contemporary requirements...
9 years ago
Aaron Bradley
... for the generation of most enhanced site features in the SERPs, and for the generation of most rich results in the SERPs.
9 years ago
Kevin Marks
microformats 2 changed the model so that the parsers did not have to know the vocabulary of each format. Hence schema vocab in mf2
9 years ago
Kevin Marks
looking at it, that could just be a rel link to a template url. The related spec is Opensearch opensearch.org/Documentation/…
9 years ago
Megan Zlock
That is interesting. Good points on the extensibility and verboseness (from a brief scan).
9 years ago
Kevin Marks
By advocating for JSON-LD Islands, schema has conceded the complexity to some extent, but not the DRY problems
9 years ago
Dorian Taylor
it looks like pretty much like the same deal as it did circa 2005
8 years ago
Kevin Marks
OK, let me try this a different way. What problem are you trying to solve? You like rdf as an abstraction, which is fair enough. Do you want to turn information marked up as microformats into rdf so you can link it to data you already have?
8 years ago
Dorian Taylor
you are reacting to a remark I made about "other" vocabularies and microformats not really having that concept in the same way RDFS/OWL does (i.e. term reconciliation via rdfs:subClassOf, rdfs:subPropertyOf, owl:equivalentClass, owl:equivalentProperty, owl:sameAs) am I wrong?
8 years ago